How to damage weapon subsystems? (question on final mission)

I have a question about taking on the dreadnought's weapons subsystem in the final mission.

I played through the whole game on medium and got by just fine without targeting any subsystems. As I was wrapping up the final mission I was told to target the Wrathgar's weapons targeting system. I decided to try it out and looked through the controls on how to do it. Once I'd cycled through the navigation system and engines (SO MANY ENGINES! O_O), I found the "weapons" subsystem which I assume is what I was supposed to be targeting.

My computer locked on to a featureless area at the dreadnought's midsection. There didn't appear to be anything there, but I seemed to be locked onto something inside the ship. The weird thing was my targeting didn't have that telltale X on it that tells me when the thing I am locked on to is not visible from the current angle. So, I decided to fly inside the Wrathgar and take a look.

However, once I was inside, lo and behold there was that X. And what was I targeting? Absolutely nothing. Nothing was there. I was locked on to an empty piece of space inside the Wrathgar's launch bay. So, I flew back outside and just circled the ship, firing at its surface where I was still being told the weapons system was, and doing no damage to what I was allegedly targeting. It didn't really matter what I did at that point since I was probably hurting the ship anyway and the mission was pretty much over.

This being my first and only try at actually targeting a subsystem, I'm a little confused. Since I hadn't tried it on any other capships, this may have just been an isolated incident. But even so, I have to wonder what the point of it all was. What does a weapons subsystem even look like and how can I damage it when it's not there? Has anyone else run into this quirk or was it just me? Is it just the Wrathgar or do the other capships also have nonexistent weapons targeting subsystems?

EDIT: I should mention that the weapons system WAS taking damage, but it didn't seem to have anything to do with me shooting at it. It was just general damage from the pounding the whole ship was taking. I didn't see any evidence that I was the one hurting it.

Wrathgar can take a lot of damage, and that goes for its individual subsystems as well, been a while since I have played that mission but I am pretty sure the weapons subsystem is on the outside of the ship, and that it may have been a fairly large section of the ship compared with the ones on smaller ships.

The benefit of taking out the weapons subsystems on capital ships (most of them do have them), is that it reduces the accuracy of all of the weapons on the ship, ideally you want want to take it out early on if possible, it makes life easier overall.

The wepon system is inside the hull, and I think the dreadnoughts hull is just to tuff for you to dammage it with fighter guns, how ever the lontg bows should be abel to with there torpidos

Except that, according to the chatter, there aren't any more torpedoes.

I guess pack lots, and lots, of dumbfires.

If you had listened to ALL chatter, you would have heard that the Marines on the ground are targeting the subsystem with their surface to space missiles.

KeldorKatarn wrote:If you had listened to ALL chatter, you would have heard that the Marines on the ground are targeting the subsystem with their surface to space missiles.

Wait, then what's the point of even participating in the mission if I can't personally harm the Wrathghar? I've played through the mission twice and no matter what I do the outcome is the same. I feel like the whole last part of the mission is one long "you win" scripted event. The first time, I wasted most of my time firing at its invulnerable hull, trying to take down the targeting system which apparently can't be destroyed before the whole ship explodes. The second time, I just shot at the turrets, but was unable to damage the heavy ones until near the end of the mission. Both times I either mostly, or entirely ignored the fighters (after its shields when down), yet the Wrathghar was destroyed anyway.

This wouldn't bug me so much if I wasn't sure the Wrathghar's hull was vulnerable to my weapons. At least, it was in an earlier mission when it was chasing down the Hermes. I flew inside its launch bay and got it down to 27% damage where it locked and became invulnerable and I failed the mission. I understand that I wasn't supposed to destroy it during that mission, but in the final mission where the goal is to destroy it, I couldn't harm it at all except to take out a few turrets, which is pointless because I know the outcome doesn't change if I don't attack them.

Basically, I feel like the third wheel. Next time I try the mission I'm just going to park myself away from the battle and watch to see if I'm even necessary.

Silk_Sk wrote:Basically, I feel like the third wheel. Next time I try the mission I'm just going to park myself away from the battle and watch to see if I'm even necessary.

I guess the level of scripting in the final mission doesn't bother me as much as you, but then I had been playing Skyrim right before - a game where guardsman kill a dragon and the player gets all the credit for being in the general vicinity. Those three heroes didn't even need me for the final battle, I might as well have stayed home and banged Lydia.

Guys, we simply cannot make a battle in which several squadrons, mostly bombers, capships and ground forces attack a Dreadnaught and then let the player feel like he did everything by himself.

The entire game is about being part of the greater fleet and not doing everything yourself and killing fleets in a 2-man flight like in regular WC because we thought that was the worst part of those games and the only thing WCP got right.

You are flying a space superiority fighter in the last mission. And just like in all the other missions, the job of a fighter is not to kill big capital ships, but to provide space superiority so that your allies can do that job. Welcome to realistic military operations.

Your job in the mission is not to destroy the dreadnaught but to first hammer its remaining shields since your in an Excalibur can do hit and run attacks very well, then get rid of the remaining fighter screen and turrets so the bombers can start their attack. Then keep them safe from the additionally launched fighter wings and later to clear a path for the ground-to-space missiles so they are not getting shot down before hitting their target.

And all of those objectives are told to you by the game.

KeldorKatarn wrote:

Your job in the mission is not to destroy the dreadnaught but to first hammer its remaining shields since your in an Excalibur can do hit and run attacks very well, then get rid of the remaining fighter screen and turrets so the bombers can start their attack. Then keep them safe from the additionally launched fighter wings and later to clear a path for the ground-to-space missiles so they are not getting shot down before hitting their target.

And all of those objectives are told to you by the game.

I just replayed the mission and did none of those things. I just burn-glided to a respectable distance and watched, and I still failed to fail the mission. None of my allies were even shot down. I could see this happening on easy difficulty, but medium? In fact, I doubt the result would be different on hard either. No matter what you say, it's abundantly clear that nothing I do has any effect on the outcome on the mission. The objectives do not mean anything. After all of your ranting about how challenging you wanted the game to be, this is pretty disappointing.

Since the objectives are all smoke and mirrors anyway, could it possibly be patched so that the player can hurt the dreadnought and have the events trigger based on how much damage the player does? Then at least the mission could be progressed forward by the player and be something that resembles fun. Or, if you want to do it the hard way, find a way to make the objectives mean something. I'd take either one, just so long as it feels like a game and not a glorified cutscene.

is there anything you don't complain about?

also have you ever heard of a kill count? how about you take advantage of the bomber free time the devs finally give you to rack that up instead of picking everything apart to find something new to argue with keldor about

one more thing this fly away and watch exploit could be considered acceptable considering there are exploits for the final wc3 mission that make it super easy if you want it to be

hmm,

First: I loved the game, it was excellence.

Yet, the final mission had a bit of anti-climax to it. Just because you can succeed by not doing anything.

What happens here (it also happens in the missions with enemy aces) is that "plot armour" takes over. A common happening.

It was very apparant versus the aces: they smoke, they have shields down, you see 3 missiles explode on them and they fly on because the script dictates it should be like that. To me it would be better to not have the aces in such a mission and use elite enemies (upgraded specs for enemy) which can be shot down. Only use an enemy ace if it can be shot down, or let him escape very quick, eg with Stalker it was done well.

In the final mission: your longbows will survive for the script no matter how many kills you make. The only script the player needs to fulfill in the last mission: stay alive. And yes, that can be fun & good like in the fourth mission when the Hermes needs to reach the jump point.

I think the Wrathgar should be damageabe by the player. In assistance to all other assets. Or create a mission asset which needs action, not survival.

The attack on the large Kilrathe base had the same script affair.

Is this complaining? Perhaps. But the main page of this site says: join in and tell us what you think of wing commander saga.

Again: I loved the game. 😊

ps what is the final wc3 exploit?

horizon wrote:Again: I loved the game. 😊

I believe I said it again and again that we are listening to your feedback. It does not mean that we have to implement it - if you do not like the game, it is fine. The key word here is artistic integrity - you have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in the artistic and design choices made during the entire development process.

horizon wrote:ps what is the final wc3 exploit?

Ah yes, it was always smooth sailing for me to that fault line, flying in cloaked always made logical sense to me, did not know it was a bug. 😉

In X-Wing I would pop in and out of the trench periodically, you got a speed boost when flying in the trench as I recall (the only real incentive to stay in it really, lol).

mormon_boy"]

The difference is that it's an exploit that still requires the player to progress the mission forward. Something's wrong when there's no tangible incentive to even approach the final boss. It's not an exploit or a bug. It's just a stupidly easy final mission. The only way I could pretend it was a challenge would be to power down my shields and weapons and try to survive without using my afterburner. But even then I still have no reason to even go near the Wrathghar. Somehow, the player needs to be forced into the situation.

silk_sk I've stopped trying to please you a long time ago I'm just opening my mouth so you don't spoil the fun for others. if you have such difficulty finding the fun in things and must be challenged maybe its a real life game like football or soccer that you need instead of CoD.

mormon_boy wrote:silk_sk I've stopped trying to please you a long time ago I'm just opening my mouth so you don't spoil the fun for others. if you have such difficulty finding the fun in things and must be challenged maybe its a real life game like football or soccer that you need instead of CoD.

I am at a loss for words at how irrelevant that argument was so I'll just respond to the "can't find the fun and want to be challenged" part. First of all, I wouldn't have played this game all the way through if I didn't think it was fun as hell. Secondly, why would you even criticize me for wanting to challenged? Is there some double standard I'm missing here? YES I want to be challenged. I love this game because it's challenging. I thought that was the whole point. This isn't about the last mission being too hard or too easy. It's the simple fact that if the player's participation has no effect on the outcome then it can't even be called a video game.

first the devs heard your feedback and said there isn't going to be anything done about it end of story. second real life is the only place you have control over your action and out comes in a way that matters so if you want your participation to always have an effect on the out come play that instead

actually there are even things in real life beyond your control so why should games be any different?

mormon_boy wrote:first the devs heard your feedback and said there isn't going to be anything done about it end of story. second real life is the only place you have control over your action and out comes in a way that matters so if you want your participation to always have an effect on the out come play that instead

You know what? Kudos for finding a creatively convoluted way to tell me to get a life. I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it went over my head. But here's a free tip: never tell someone you're arguing with to get a life. It basically means you've lost.

thanks for the tip if it means you'll stop complaining and we can start being friendly towards each other then I'll let you believe that (actually I didn't realize I said "get a life" it wasn't ever a comeback that I understood)

mormon_boy wrote:thanks for the tip if it means you'll stop complaining and we can start being friendly towards each other then I'll let you believe that (actually I didn't realize I said "get a life" it wasn't ever a comeback that I understood)

Good thing, because this was about three posts away from becoming embarrassing for both of us. But I am interested in keeping this thing going so I'll ask you something. What exactly was your experience during the final part of the game? What did you do and why did you do it? Did you feel like you had accomplished anything (within the game) and what did you feel you had accomplished? Try to keep it only within the context of your experience and not this debate.

I was thoroughly sold that my actions matter in this mission (even if they don't the devs did a good job IMO of making me think they did) so I first engaged the fighters head on focusing on those that were in my sights, and ignoring the one pursuing me because it made logical sense to me that if they are chasing me they won't be chasing the bombers. Then as the fighter cover thinned out I followed psycho's advice and started probing for weak spots including runs on the hangar bay. Around this point is one of the cinematic highlights of the mission for me where the marines come riding to the rescue. When the Hermes joined the fight I tried to damage the weapon systems (I even flew into the hangar to try and nail it from the inside)when I realized that I wasn't going to scratch this sucker I decided to help in the only way I could and turned my attention back to the fighters and my kill count. I loved the mission enough to replay it a few times since then

mormon_boy wrote:I was thoroughly sold that my actions matter in this mission (even if they don't the devs did a good job IMO of making me think they did) so I first engaged the fighters head on focusing on those that were in my sights, and ignoring the one pursuing me because it made logical sense to me that if they are chasing me they won't be chasing the bombers. Then as the fighter cover thinned out I followed psycho's advice and started probing for weak spots including runs on the hangar bay. Around this point is one of the cinematic highlights of the mission for me where the marines come riding to the rescue. When the Hermes joined the fight I tried to damage the weapon systems (I even flew into the hangar to try and nail it from the inside)when I realized that I wasn't going to scratch this sucker I decided to help in the only way I could and turned my attention back to the fighters and my kill count. I loved the mission enough to replay it a few times since then

That would have likely been my experience as well if it weren't for something I had done in a previous mission. I've mentioned it before but I'll do a more detailed recap. It was the mission in which the Wrathghar was chasing down the Hermes. Someone said "If we get in range of the Wrathghar's guns we're done for." and I decided the best way to prevent that would be to destroy the Wrathghar. So, I did what you said you did just now. I flew into the hanger to take it out from the inside. The difference here was that I was actually able to damage it. As I've mentioned, I got it down to 27% damage before the plot-armor kicked in.

Then, the Hermes exploded and I had to restart the mission. Do you know why? It was because of all the bombers that were flying around that I wasn't attacking. They were supposed to be my objective and I failed it. So for the next play-through, I ignored the Wrathghar and attacked the bombers and I finished the mission. It was a clear case of me having to play my part to win. I understood and was perfectly fine with the idea that I was not supposed to attack the Wrathghar for that mission.

And then, the final mission happened. Since I knew from experience that I could hurt the Wrathghar, I was looking forward to finally taking it down. Except, I couldn't. I finally had a mission where the goal was to destroy it, but it was the only one that I couldn't even hurt it. Despite this, I stubbornly kept attacking its hull and ignored all the other objectives even though I knew I was accomplishing nothing. I was disappointed that I couldn't kill it, but I decided to just pretend I could for a while, lose the mission, then play it again for real. I would have been okay with that if there was still a consequence for me not doing as I was told. Can you understand my complete disappointment when this wasn't the case? I wasn't attacking the fighters or the turrets so how did I not fail the mission? The launchers on the Wrathghar and all the fighters I wasn't killing should have overwhelmed my allies and destroyed the Hermes. The turrets I wasn't destroying should have shot down the missiles from the planet and left the Wrathghar untouched. Based on my experience in the previous mission, in fact, ALL the previous missions, this should have been the outcome.

The nail in the coffin is that even my allies, who were supposed to take out its targeting system, failed in their objective and the Wrathghar was STILL destroyed. Short of letting yourself be killed, it is absolutely, unequivocally, and in every way literally impossible to fail the mission. This is so antithesis to what a final boss fight is supposed to be that I am almost offended. It was as if I had spent the last few hours pleasuring a woman, and then at the last second she kicked me off the bed and finished by herself.

sigh... and we are back to complaining/jk thankfully with the new mission editor you can strip off the plot armor and blow it up yourself. personally after all the desperate chasing down bombers of the last few missions I liked how the last mission cut you loose of your responsibilities and let you just focus on killing things for a change and I wouldn't trade the dreadnoughts beauty fully scripted demise for me awkwardly grinding away at it from inside that hangar bay and missing all the fun outside. Though I would prefer the Armageddon share in the Wrathghar's invulnerability since its a dreadnought to and all.

mormon_boy wrote:sigh... and we are back to complaining/jk thankfully with the new mission editor you can strip off the plot armor and blow it up yourself. personally after all the desperate chasing down bombers of the last few missions I liked how the last mission cut you loose of your responsibilities and let you just focus on killing things for a change and I wouldn't trade the dreadnoughts beauty fully scripted demise for me awkwardly grinding away at it from inside that hangar bay and missing all the fun outside. Though I would prefer the Armageddon share in the Wrathghar's invulnerability since its a dreadnought to and all.

Grinding away from the inside of the ship is something I could choose to do (It's pretty much how I took out every capship for most of the game), or I could choose to do it the legit way on later tries. I think taking out the weapons targeting system should have been a real objective that had to be accomplished for the mission to succeed. I want to have a reason to participate beyond zoom-zoom pew-pew.

the mission is heavily scripted if you knew the weapons subsystem was an objective and you took it out before any one said anything it it could screw up the series of events, and making the subsystem go from invulnerable to vulnerable could be confusing to some users

mormon_boy wrote:the mission is heavily scripted if you knew the weapons subsystem was an objective and you took it out before any one said anything it it could screw up the series of events, and making the subsystem go from invulnerable to vulnerable could be confusing to some users

Why? The capships and the heavy turrets already go from invulnerable to vulnerable and they aren't even explicit objectives. At least, I know the cruiser gets plot-armored at a certain level of damage if you try and take it out right away. I haven't gone through the mission and seen exactly what I can and cannot destroy but the heavy turrets are definitely invulnerable for most of the mission.

the heavy turrets turn vulnerable? this is what i mean by vulnerable switchs being a bad idea some users won't get it and as a result won't try it

They should be vulnerable all the time. 😉

mormon_boy wrote:the heavy turrets turn vulnerable? this is what i mean by vulnerable switchs being a bad idea some users won't get it and as a result won't try it

Now you might be getting at least an idea of my frustration.

yeah they should stay invulnerable the whole time!/jk in the end its just game

also it works here cause technically the mission doesn't depend on killing it like what you were suggesting for the weapon control system

mormon_boy wrote:yeah they should stay invulnerable the whole time!/jk in the end its just game

also it works here cause technically the mission doesn't depend on killing it like what you were suggesting for the weapon control system

My whole point is that at the end it isn't even a game. Its just one long scripted event that you are there to observe. But, if the mission did depend on something like taking out the weapon control system then maybe it would be a game.

Ok people this is getting nowhere. we heard all points, there is NO point in repeating stuff over and over and over again just because you feel you are always correct and need people to acknowledge that. That's trolling, not discussing and if I see that happening in one more thread I'm going to start banning people.

We have nothing against feedback and we're taking it into acount for future projects, but you also take into acount that telling us ONCE is enough.

Locked. Everybody consider yourself warned. We like dicussions, we don't like trolling eachother and flame wars.