Vega 4

Here you should give us a lot of feedback on how hard the first and last nav points are. (And of course how much fun they are)

MAJOR SPOILERS for anyone who didn't played the mission, read at your own risk...

Edit: One thing though - the trouble with the 1st nav point is that the HUD color has very low contrast compared to the planet in the background so you have trouble with aiming, you can try to brighten the HUD with the "L" key but it isn't enough. One solution is to change the HUD color in the Options.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes the HUD color is a problem, but that cannot be changed unfortunately. A half transparent HUD will always be problematic on a bright background, but I think the mission is worth it. Changing the HUD color helps, as you noticed.

About the first Nav Point... this one is VERY important to test. We need to adjust the acceleration of the missiles just right to make this mission hard enough to win but not impossible to win. So if none of you guys make it, I'll adjust the acceleration value and let you try again 😊

On the second run only 2 of the missiles got away and I used all of my IR missiles on them, finished the rest of the mission with only guns no problem... I think it's doable.

I've noticed something odd about the capmisses: Before they explode, they spin out of control like the fighters do. I don't remember that they behaved like this in the prologue.

FekLeyrTarg wrote:I've noticed something odd about the capmisses: Before they explode, they spin out of control like the fighters do. I don't remember that they behaved like this in the prologue.

Let's just say these are... special capship missiles... space-surface... you know...

Seriously though.. file a ticket mentioning the mission (since this will only happen in this mission). I'll see if I can do anything about this before release.

damson wrote:MAJOR SPOILERS for anyone who didn't played the mission, read at your own risk...

OK I have to say this was THE most fun mission to play thus far. Intercepting the cap missiles was troublesome (didn't get them all - tried the mission just once), the second nav point in planet's atmosphere was fairly easy compared to the first one. Swooped through it without problem. Oh and the amount of easter eggs - LT. Col. Wagner "Valkyrie", Raid of valkyries, "We're done using you..." Exceptional mission - good pacing, good narrative, great visuals (backdrops), WELL DONE ➡️ .

When I wrote the script of this mission, it was supposed to be based on a scene from the Action Stations novel, when young Ensign Tolwyn (yes, the Admiral of WC3) was part of a fighter strike against Kilrathi troop transports . . . shooting them out of the sky and seeing armored Kilrathi troopers fall out of the landing craft, etc etc.

Apocalypse Now is one of my all time favorite flicks, and let's face it. Blowing helpless Kilrathi Marines out of the sky while Ride of the Valkyries is playing is just . . . badass.

Another very unknown easter egg too that not many people will catch. The very first Wing Commander 1/2 strategy guide, involved the player rescusing a Tiger's Claw pilot named Valkyrie. This is the same person I intended to eventually become the Valkyrie Leader of this mission.

Took out the missiles both attempts without any issues. Loveley mission, lots of character. Evereything seemed fine, only issue is the drop ship formation. I thought the 4 groups of dropships all lined up behind each other looked artificial and a bit bland considering the backdrop. I think if the dropships were in a dispersal pattern it would look better and more chaotic. Thoughts?

damson wrote:MAJOR SPOILERS for anyone who didn't played the mission, read at your own risk...

I took the liberty to add a "spoiler" feature to the board. 😉

radarhead wrote:Took out the missiles both attempts without any issues. Loveley mission, lots of character. Evereything seemed fine, only issue is the drop ship formation. I thought the 4 groups of dropships all lined up behind each other looked artificial and a bit bland considering the backdrop. I think if the dropships were in a dispersal pattern it would look better and more chaotic. Thoughts?

Well a convoy that is escorted is supposed to stay in formation. In WW2 leaving the formation was the worst thing any transport captain could do... So I think it is realistic... considering there are Kilrathi Marines aboard which are probably drilled into formation holding to the extreme... I actually thought it looked visually very appealing, this large formation of dropships flying towards the colony...

any other opinions?

A. This is not a convoy, its an aggressive dropship action 😊. Not cargo boats in an escort formation,in an ocean, they are dropships plummeting through the sky. You hve to think sky, no aircraft formations = 4 straight lines, escorting or not. B. Who said anything about leaving formation I suggested a dispesed pattern, if we are talking logic, dropships would drop in a disperesed pattern to increase the chance of dropships getting through an AA screen. 4 Strishgt lines would make a very easy target for anyone who got the initial vector correct. C. WW2? Wha? This is not WW2, this is WC3, also these aren't even humans. D. Fair enough if you think they look better in straight lines 😊.

radarhead wrote: C. WW2? Wha? This is not WW2, this is WC3, also these aren't even humans.

Hehe, if you dig deep enough into WC you'll find out that WW2 and WC are one and the same 😉

Here are my thoughts on the topic. In WW2 the bomber formations were setup in such way to maximize the firepower of the gunners - overlaping fields of fire and such. They flew in Vee (wedge) formation.

[Image: http://www.stelzriede.com/ms/photos/groupf.gif]

To combat this the attacking fighters had to minimize the time on target so they performed slashing attacks from the front (head-on). Here's something for you to read.

http://www.stelzriede.com/ms/html/mshwpmn2.htm

What I have noticed is when you get behind last transport in the column the rest in front of him cannot touch you (due to the fact they fly in trail formation so they are obscured by the trailing transport) so it's basicly a turkey shot.

On the other hand Wing Commander games were never realistic (it's a space combat game after all, if you wanted a realistic space sim you would have to threw away the sound, the inertia of the ship in space would make the fights not so fun anymore just to name a few...) but this didn't made them any less fun to play.

Maybe after this battle the Kilrathi will rethink their tactics during atmospheric dropship insertion 😂

damson wrote:[...]so it's basicly a turkey shot.

Well... it's supposed to be 😉

Arguably turkey shoots aren't that fun 😮 . Regardless Damson my original point was just seeing them in 4 rows imo looked a bit plain, rather than dispersed, or a more chaotic formation, what say you?

radarhead wrote:Arguably turkey shoots aren't that fun 😮 . Regardless Damson my original point was just seeing them in 4 rows imo looked a bit plain, rather than dispersed, or a more chaotic formation, what say you?

Well, to be honest it doesn't bother me that much. But if there could be another iteration of this mission in Beta 4 with changed formation of the drop ships I will gladly test it 😁

Can anyone confirm/reproduce that Alpha wing does not engage the missiles at Nav 2? I cannot.

KeldorKatarn"]

Well, I would suggest a different solution: Let some of them spin and some explode (If it's possible). To hit a missle so that it's thrusters and engine start malfunctioning works fine for me, I did not even recognize that as a bug - same goes for shot down kilrathi fighters.

Stinger"]

Well, I would suggest a different solution: Let some of them spin and some explode (If it's possible). To hit a missle so that it's thrusters and engine start malfunctioning works fine for me, I did not even recognize that as a bug - same goes for shot down kilrathi fighters.

Problem is the stanadard missiles never do that. Therefore it is differnt behavior for these and will be noticable. I already solved this, thesse missiles will now explode directly just like their standard counterparts.

It's a hell of a mission.. in a positive way! I loved the epic scale. You, your wingmen and some crazy veterans, some wagner, some almost defenseless transports full of furballs..

Only thing that I noticed was that I had a hard time targeting the missiless with mouse steering. After trying it again with my WingmanExtreme I have to say that the choice of controls realy makes a difference in this mission. I'm not sure if I just was to excited the first time 😂 Anyone made a similar experience ?

ahh..almost forgot about one thin:

The formation of the transports. I realy think that, despite any tactics or ww2-stories, the formation looks a bit odd when you arive at the nav. it's like looking on a 2D gameboard while standing on it. Perhaps it's possible to just varry the z position of some of the transports. Even if these transports are spaceships they have to deal with atmospheric turmoils and it's very unlikely that they would be able to stay in such a close formation.

Yeh ultimately it just looked flat and odd imo. Epic mission though, so much character.

Ok ok you guys convinced me. Please open a Mantis ticket about the transports' formation. I'll try to make the formation a little more "3D".

I took the liberty of adding the mantis ticket #214 with additional note for you all to consider.

http://mantis.wcsaga.com/view.php?id=214

Tried this mission once again (on 3rd playthrough through all the missions in Beta3), and I finally managed to take out all of the capmissiles. Well, barely. The last one had speed over 1200 (more than Hellcat on Afterburner) and it was over 4000 meters away. With no missiles on board I was able to shoot it down with my guns. It was pretty intense to say the least...

So the balance is fine with me on this mission.

I also tried flying from Nav 3 to Nav 4 without autopilot to see what will happen to backdrop change and to no surprise I ended with this:

📎 [Attachment: wcsagabeta3-4.JPG]

If you wandering what's going on it's the atmosphere battle but in space (the backdrop didn't change from Nav 3).

I'm not reporting it as a issue, just as a curiosity.

Ok, today I got a hard time beating this mission again. The first 3 times I tried this mission some days ago I didn't have any problems shooting down the missiles. Today I went through brimstone and vega another time and ended up getting frustrated over vega 4. Yes, after 5 attempts I made it, but 'til then I wanted to bite into my laptop. I love the atmospheric part of the mission, the atmosphere created by the music etc. but I'm still not realy sure if I like the missile part. On one hand it is a nice kind of "clay-pigeon-game" but on the other hand it's sometimes anoying, because even when targeting precisly from behind the missiles you sometimes just don't hit them. This seems to become more a game of luck than having something to do with flying skills.

The target profiles are VERY narrow which means that even if you have the missile dead center the shots are passing slightly above or below the missile itself. A slightly bigger colission box may be required to make this well for the average player.

I aim slightly above and below and I am constantly rolling while attacking the missile which spreads the shots and kills the missile.

Also I expended most of my IR missiles intercepting the last few. I figured time was running out!

I also used up most of my guided armament. As Ice said, this might cause frustration to the average player, especially when arriving at the "real battle" against the drop ships and their escort with no fuel and IRs left...

The main problem here is, that changing the difficulty doesn't seem to affect the missile interception (does it?) so this would probably get some players stuck.

We have adjusted missile acceleration and halfed missile hitpoints. One direct hit should be enough to finish them off.

Sounds good. I hope it doesn't get too easy, though

Even by doing nothing, all but one of the missles were shot down by my wingmen. Second problem: Same goes for the transports. I had to fight some of the escort fighters in order to survive, but I didn't fire a single shot at the troop transports... but they were all destroyed nonetheless. I find that waypoint too easy.

Samheyn wrote:The main problem here is, that changing the difficulty doesn't seem to affect the missile interception (does it?) so this would probably get some players stuck.

Very good point. Please open a Mantis ticket for this.

I could have sworn that I comment on this before but ...I get distracted and then close the browser window and away it goes 😊

In any case... I'm really liking the last combat waypoint fighting in the clouds. I wasn't expecting that because in the past it was also set in space. Getting down into the atmosphere with the Hellcat brings back memories from WC4. I guess it suffers from the same "it's still feels like you're flying in space" problem that many commented on with WC4 but as far as nods to past installments I think this works well - all the more so with Ride of the Valkyries playing in the background.

Contrary to what Stinger was saying. I found the AI wingmen seemed to be lackadaisical or lethargic going after the transports. I'm playing on Normal.

In the athmorsphere the AI will wait for Col. Wagner's command to attack before they charge the enemy. That is not a bug, that is working as designed.

In my today's play-through, I noticed that two of the Hellcats are colliding all the time because the second Hellcat is ramming the first one from behind... I'm not quite sure if this is recreateable, but I wanted to mention it. It happend on the first in-atmosphere navpoint; think it were Bravo 2 and 3.

Unfortunately there is probably little we can do about that. the fighter AI is just horrible when it comes to avoiding collisions while flying in formation. But I'll see what I can do.

That's the Freespace engine doing all the AI collisions. Not sure what all can be done to fix it... It doesn't really hurt much though

Found it much easier to kill the missiles in beta4. don't know what was changed, but now I did it in the first attempt. Did you change the drop ship formation ? I couldn't notice any difference...

No we haven't changed the formation yet.

In the second part of the briefing (0:48 - 1:09) the animation slows to approximately 1 FPS or even lower, the sound is fine. Tried this 3 times. In VLC media player it plays just fine.

Edit: Tried once more after rebooting my PC and still the same result. Please someone confirm this, so we can either add the Mantis ticket or ignore it and blame my hardware for this issue.

The mission is in fact easier due to the one-hit one-kill on the capmissiles change since Beta3.

Cutscene problems are known and already being worked on.

I have to disagree with the majority here, I don't find the formation odd at all. It's a military drop, it's not really that inconceivable that the Kilrathi (and Terrans) have developed organized planetary drops is it? The Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers didn't drop all haphazardly scattered across the sky. Plus each dropship is defended by turrets and they're all covering one another. It's actually quite a deadly little crossfire to get caught in the middle of their formation, which is how I think it should be.

Just my .02

Anjelus wrote:I have to disagree with the majority here, I don't find the formation odd at all. It's a military drop, it's not really that inconceivable that the Kilrathi (and Terrans) have developed organized planetary drops is it? The Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers didn't drop all haphazardly scattered across the sky. Plus each dropship is defended by turrets and they're all covering one another. It's actually quite a deadly little crossfire to get caught in the middle of their formation, which is how I think it should be.

Just my .02

Well as long as there are 3 trail formations your remarks are correct, but when the last remain you can line up behind last one, smoke him, move to another, repeat till you get to the first one and all this without being shot at (rear of the troop transport is basically unprotected).

Which is how I originally designed that nav point. Catching the cats with their pants down for once... :geek:

damson"]

Yea, I don't see a problem with that though you know? That's just kind of the way formations like that work out, each loss endangers the rest of the formation exponentially until they're easy pickings.

Sometimes I fly as a gunner in a two-seat biplane in a World War 1 flight sim. Those things are very vulnerable to fighters but as long as you maintain formation you're safe from pretty much everything save an enemy's initial diving/head on attack. 4 or more two-seaters in tight formation is almost impenetrable. But then you lose one to engine trouble or flak or just bad luck, and you're much more vulnerable with 3, the odds go up even higher that you'll lose another one, and by the time there's one or two of you you're dead ducks.

Played the Beta 5 version of this mission. The formation is altered so attacking it is little more difficult due to mutual support of the transports (although it would be better if they were packed closer together). But let's wait and see what others have to say about it.

And it's nice to finally hear all the dialog during the mission.

beta8 playthrough:

No problems. I still enjoy this mission very much. The missile interception always gets me very excited because I lose my sense for time and fear that I might not be able to destroy all the missiles in time. Very stressing but in a positive way. And I don't have to talk about the rest of the mission again. Just stunning.

Did I mention that I love the voice acting ? Those gals and guys just did a great job. The atmosphere is so dense and you achieved one thing that only a few games achieved before: your characters seem to have a soul

damson wrote:In the second part of the briefing (0:48 - 1:09) the animation slows to approximately 1 FPS or even lower, the sound is fine. Tried this 3 times. In VLC media player it plays just fine.

Edit: Tried once more after rebooting my PC and still the same result. Please someone confirm this, so we can either add the Mantis ticket or ignore it and blame my hardware for this issue.

This happens to me too, just figured I'd point it out as this is beta 8 0=)

Stinger wrote:In my today's play-through, I noticed that two of the Hellcats are colliding all the time because the second Hellcat is ramming the first one from behind... I'm not quite sure if this is recreateable, but I wanted to mention it. It happend on the first in-atmosphere navpoint; think it were Bravo 2 and 3.

Also confirmed, looks quite funny when you see all the armor plating those two vent when they collide. Did notice that they start to pull apart as bravo 2 flies a bit faster than bravo 3, so they stop bumping uglies after about 30 seconds.

Yeah, some of these collisions are ugly... but I don't think you can ever prevent all collisions when using the FS2 engine. Remember the main game ? That was one of the few things I always hated. Wingmen rammed each other, rammed the enemy and.. they rammed you!

But I spotted this one too and perhaps you could get rid of it by changing the initial placement of the fighters.

The initial placement has nothing to do with that.

from what I read it's an AI formation flying thing, I just thought I'd mention that I noticed it too :p

I think it's a by-design decision of Tolwyn who just wants us to see some ship-to-ship porn for free 😛

well as long as they're flying safely. Otherwise he'll have to raise the baby Hellcats 😮

I've played Vega 4 now and have following to report: -Briefing Video was lagging. (all other Briefing Videos before were lag-free) -Debriefing Voice-less again. 08_db_kettle_01.ogg is present.

Beta9:

Works fine!

Just wanted to give some more detailed feedback here (rather than the greenlight thread). First off, I love all the chatter and jokes in this mission (both the ones the characters get and those the player gets). Also, I loved the use of Ride of the Valkyries, but I agree with some others that it should be louder; as it is now, it's quieter than the regular game music, when it should probably be the opposite if it's going to have any psychological effect on the Kilrathi 😉 Also, given Sweeney's line about earplugs, I keep expecting them to be blasting it out at high volume; otherwise, why would you need earplugs?

As for the missile-shoot, I think the difficulty of hitting missiles for the player is fine as it is now (Beta 11), but I wish the AI wasn't so useless. I understand we don't want to make the mission too easy, but do I really have to shoot down every single missile myself?

My complaint is not that the mission is too hard; I think the difficulty is just right. I would just like to see that difficulty maintained but with the other fighters being more effective. For example, I'd rather have twice as many missiles, but with an AI that did a good job taking them out, rather than the current number and an AI which has a kill-rate of about 1 missile per ship (leaving ~23 out of 30 missiles for the player, sometimes more (I've taken out up to 25)). If this is really just an issue of the Freespace AI sucking, there may not be anything we can do about it, but I figured I'd give my two cents anyway.

I agree to arisian's comment on the music volume - the Ride of the Valkyries should really sound more powerful so the cats will crap their panties 😊

Before I continue completing my greenlight report: Do the paths "Intercept about 75-99% of the missiles" and "Intercept about 50-74% of the missiles" have the same dialogue after the missiles have escaped?

No.

Ok thanks. Also, is it intended that there's no victory music on the losing paths?

FekLeyrTarg wrote:Ok thanks. Also, is it intended that there's no victory music on the losing paths?

Why would there be ??

I just wanted to know it before I accidently mark it red in my Greenlight Report.